Stephan Pastis, "Pearls Before Swine" cartoonist: Mr. Media Interview, Part 1

Stephan Pastis is a big fan of Ricky Gervais, creator of "The Office" and "Extras," and Larry David, co-creator of "Seinfeld" and creator of "Curb Your Enthusiasm." He also loves him some Cheryl Hines. As a matter of fact, I think the only reason I landed him on the show today is because I interviewed the "Curb Your Enthusiasm" co-star, and that gets him one degree closer to her.

Pastis’ “Pearls Before Swine” comic strip has twice been named Best Newspaper Comic Strip of the Year by the National Cartoonists Society, in 2004 and again in 2007, and it is that funny and that weird.

Well, Zeeba neighbors, prepare yourself for Stephan Pastis.

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BOB ANDELMAN/Mr. MEDIA: How long have the animals been talking to you?

STEPHAN PASTIS: Oh my goodness. I drew Rat in the very first strip I did back in…I drew him in law school so in 1991, I think. It goes back quite a ways.

ANDELMAN: Is there a connection between Rat being your first strip and you having been an attorney?

PASTIS: Oh boy. I think so. It’s one of those rare instances where I can actually remember where I was, what class I was sitting in when I drew him. At the time, he walked on all four legs, and he didn’t move. I would just draw this rat in the same position in six panels in a row. A lot like it is now, I guess, maybe fewer panels that I would just draw like that. Then I would just write all my thoughts for the day and give them to him, and it just seemed to have some life to it.

ANDELMAN: Has he changed that much over the years? I think I read that, by himself, he was a lot more obnoxious and didn’t quite click, but once you added Pig, it just seemed to work better.

PASTIS: I think so. When he’s by himself, he’s too much. He’s too acidic. He’ll overwhelm you. But I think when he’s with Pig, because of that friendship, you sort of assume that he can’t be that bad of a guy cause he’s got Pig for a friend. It’s a lot like what Cheryl Hines does for Larry David in “Curb Your Enthusiasm.” At least until she left him, she makes him more appealing cause you figure well, there’s gotta be some soft side to Larry if he can have someone that sweet for a wife.






ANDELMAN: Now I’m sure people are wondering how I made this connection to you and Cheryl Hines. We spoke just a week or two ago, and you told me that you have some lines from “The Office” and from “Curb” up on your wall that you refer to.

PASTIS: It’s mostly from interviews. Like I’ll read stuff that Gervais, the creator of “The Office,” has written or spoken in interviews about comedy. He’s like the top of the heap right now so anything he says, to me, is golden. One of the things he says is that the key to comedy is to create a character that is arrogant and pretentious while simultaneously stupid. He calls that like the Molotov cocktail of comedy. And I think that’s really a key, and I’m conscious of that when I do the crocodiles because the crocodiles don’t think they’re lame. The crocodiles think they’re quite skilled, but they’re idiots. And so, yeah, I’ll look at those quotes now and then from Gervais to sort of remind me what comedy should be.

ANDELMAN: “Pearls,” like “LIO” and “Get Fuzzy,” they’re strips created by, I believe, friends of yours, Darby Conley and Mark Tatulli. “Pearls” exists in its own world, a place, for anyone who’s read it, where zebras live next door to crocodiles that want to eat them and a pig and a rat are apparently roommates. Where did this whole world come from?

PASTIS: That’s a good question. To me, I think that the key to creating a strip is to create it from the bottom up rather than the top down. And what I mean by that is just focus on writing individual strips, make them as funny as you can, and let the characters, the setting, all of that flow from those strips. In other words, the jokes should come first, and they will tell you what you need character-wise, setting-wise, whereas if you create it from the top down, you say, “I’m gonna do a strip where the main characters are like this and they have these jobs and they live in this town,” you’re really tying your hands. And you’ve got to do this 365 days a year so you want that canvas to be as broad as possible. So, to answer your question, I really wasn’t conscious of the world I was creating when I created it. I just did strips that I thought were funny. Even now, as a result of that, I don’t know a lot of the answers to those questions. Where do Rat and Pig live? They seem to live together. What part of the country? I don’t know. It does lead to some logistical mistakes. For example, the Zebra lives next to this Fraternity of Crocodiles, but somehow, there is this family of crocodiles with the dad, a mom, and a kid. And they don’t seem to live with the rest of the fraternity, and they’re also next door to Zebra as are the lions. So the only way I told myself that it works is that one of them is the neighbor behind Zebra’s house, one is to the side of Zebra’s house, and one is to the other side. But I’m the creator, and I’m not sure.

ANDELMAN: Are there rules that you’ve established for yourself over time? For example, in Tatulli’s strip, LIO never talks, and he doesn’t have any intention of anyone in that strip ever actually speaking, although they write notes and they watch television. What are the rules in the “Pearls Before Swine” universe?

PASTIS: I don’t have too many. I know that in an early strip I had Rat’s father die so I can’t have him have a father. I know that. When the predators talk, either the Lion or the crocs, I have to remember to do it in lower case. I really don’t have that many rules, I guess, thinking about it. Maybe there are some I can’t think of.





ANDELMAN: Well, let’s take our first call. Howard, right?

HOWARD FINBERG: Yes.

ANDELMAN: Yeah, Howard, you have a question for Stephan Pastis.

FINBERG: I do. Stephan, great strip. Love what you do.

PASTIS: Thank you.

FINBERG: I’m curious. This is a question that I see on the chat that others have as well - the whole idea of crossovers with other comic strips. Where did you get that idea? I think, of all the strips out there, you tend to play homage or take homage with a lot of other strips that are out there.

PASTIS: It’s probably because when I was a kid growing up, and I saw any sort of a crossover, and they didn’t happen very often, I just loved them. I just thought they were so fun. And when I do the strip, I’m really, I guess, just entertaining myself in some way. And since I have always liked them, I try to use them. Nowadays, I know most of the people whose strips I use so I will often run them by them beforehand to see if they’re okay with them. I don’t always do that, but sometimes I do. Like Rick Kirkman and Jerry Scott, I know them well so I’ll run that by them. And Bill Keane I know well so I’ll run that stuff by him. And everybody really has been very, very cool about it, especially the Keanes. They’re terrific. Bill is great.

ANDELMAN: Howard, did you have another question, or does that answer yours?

FINBERG: Yes. I have one more question for you, if you don’t mind. It’s about the predominance of croc strips. This is a question that is really coming from my better half, my wife, who also is a comic strip fan. She sort of says what’s with the crocs? It is sort of a one-gag variation. She says well, when is he gonna get off the crocs? I guess she likes Rat and Pig a lot better.

PASTIS: It’s funny. I keep a little chart on the wall where I kind of monitor how many croc strips there are a month, and I try to keep it at about seven or eight. So this month, there’s a two-week series so next month, there’ll be less. But the crocs are by far and away the most popular characters, and they really, for whatever reason, broaden the strip’s appeal. And to those people who are in that group or came along later, they don’t like it when I go and do the Rat and Pig strips. Somebody who’s been reading it for a number of years and likes Rat and Pig like your wife, for example, doesn’t like when the Crocs predominate. You learn when you do a comic strip that you can never please everybody. You have to do what you like. But I am conscious of the fact that there’s one group that likes one and one group that likes the other. It’s always a tough balance.

FINBERG: Thanks a lot.

ANDELMAN: Thanks for calling, Howard. Howard is a huge fan. His living room, God bless his wife. I know Howard, obviously. God bless his wife because his living room is full of original comics, original strips.

PASTIS: Oh, that’s great.

ANDELMAN: Which is actually something Howard probably would like to ask and maybe other people are wondering, what do you do with your strips? Are they resold? Do you have a dealer? Do you keep them?

PASTIS: I keep them. We occasionally give them to editors. I will give them to family and friends. If I parody someone’s strip, I’ll usually give them at least one of those originals, and I’ll trade with them. It’s funny. I built quite a collection of other guys’ strips now. But yeah, I just keep them all.

ANDELMAN: I want to follow up on what Howard was asking you about, and I see there’s some buzz in the chat room as well about this. So you do tip some cartoonists off. Have there been others that you have not tipped off ahead and that you’ve heard about it later?

PASTIS: Yes, yes. I don’t know the “Blondie” creator so when I made fun of their anniversary I didn’t hear from them. I don’t even know if they’re aware of the strip. I did not tip off Cathy Guisewite when I did the first six or seven (referencing “Cathy”). I have met her now at the Reubens. She was very nice to me. I don’t think she appreciated some of the early ones, which is understandable. I think if I ever kind of crossed the line it was with how I dealt with Cathy. I think it was kind of too mean-spirited. Maybe I’m getting too soft, but I look back on it, I sort of regret that a little bit. One funny thing that nobody saw cause I pulled it, but I did a series where Rat got lost in the desert, and he ran into “Family Circus” fans. It appeared in August or September. And Bill Keane got a hold of them and was gonna kill them and something like that. Well, in the middle of that, I did a “Funky Winkerbean” parody making fun of that whole Lisa Moore storyline where she was gonna die, she wasn’t gonna die, she was gonna die, back and forth the story went. I did it, and then I thought, “Holy smokes, this is gonna draw so many complaints cause that storyline drew tons of newspaper articles, and every cancer person, survivor, family member in the world is going to write to me.” So I went back and forth, and finally, I sent the strip to Tom Batiuk, and he couldn’t have been nicer. He was great. He said, “Go with it.” He thought it was funny and the whole bit, and I gave him the original and then he gave me a couple originals, and I pulled it. At the last minute I pulled it cause I just didn’t want the flak. You learn over time that there are certain things that draw flak, heavy flak. One of them is any disease, be it physical or mental. It really draws angry response. Sex, religion, politics, diseases, flooring any ethnicity, that’ll do it.






ANDELMAN: Stephan, Messieur LaChase in the chat room has a question that kind of fits with what you were just saying. Have you ever had to substitute a strip because of a taste issue or a news event?

PASTIS: It’s happened a lot of times. One time early on Rat ran for Senate or something against a guy who had died. And right in the middle of that storyline, a Senator from, I think, Minnesota died in a plane crash.

ANDELMAN: I think you’re right.

PASTIS: I can’t remember his name right now, and I think his name stayed on the ballot. And so, boy, that had to be pulled at the last minute because readers don’t understand that these are submitted weeks in advance. So that can create a bad situation. So, yeah, those were pulled. There was one where Pig was playing in the dryer once spinning around, and that week, I think some kids had been killed or shoved in a dryer or something like that, and so that was pulled for half the country. Yeah, that does happen. One really, really unfortunate one that, boy, had the timing been a little different would have just been horrible was I had a strip where the Crocs were rooting for the death of “The Crocodile Hunter,” Steve Irwin, cause his voice drove them crazy, and then three months later he was killed. Man, if that had run that week, I think that would’ve been the end of me.

ANDELMAN: Oh my goodness.

PASTIS: Yeah, it happens quite a lot.

ANDELMAN: That’s a good one to pull. Stephan, we’ve got another caller here.

FEMALE CALLER: Hi. I just wanted to ask why some characters get names, just a few get names, and the rest are “Pig” or “Rat” or “Goat”?

PASTIS: That’s a good question. The original four, I just thought it was sort of funny to not give them names. I don’t know why. I’m sort of proud of that because people take that now, and they’ll say Rat and Pig, and they don’t think twice that that’s just an animal. It’s really not a name, and I kind of like that. But nowadays, when I add a character, I do give them names. Why have I changed? I don’t know why I’ve changed. They do. I’m thinking about it. The crocs get names. Well, the duck doesn’t really have a name. He’s called the Guard Duck so I guess that’s consistent. That’s a good question. I’ve got to go back and think about that one.

ANDELMAN: Well, Stephan, you have two children, right?

PASTIS: Yes.

ANDELMAN: And you named them “Boy” and “Girl,” is that right?

PASTIS: I named who?

ANDELMAN: Your children. There’s “Boy” and “Girl.”

PASTIS: That would be pretty clever. Easier to remember.

ANDELMAN: Do you want to take a minute and talk about classic comic strips on newspaper pages? I know that’s a topic you hate to talk about.

PASTIS: Fire away.

ANDELMAN: Okay. Do you think there should be a statute of limitations for characters?

PASTIS: It’s hard to say. I think a comic strip is like a novel. I think there’s a reason there aren’t a lot of novels that are 3,000 pages. I think there’s a natural length to a novel, and I think there’s probably a natural length to a comic strip. But who’s to say? Herriman ran for forty years or something with “Krazy Kat,” and he was pretty darn good. Can you go for a long time? Sure. Sparky did. It is possible, but at the same time, it is disheartening. You look at a comics page and boy, the average age of the comics on a page would blow you away. Some of these started in the 1920s and ‘30s and some before then. It is hard to understand how a newspaper can continue to attract young readers when they do that, but who am I to say?

ANDELMAN: It’s interesting. I look at a strip like “Blondie,” which, to me, kind of defies logic in that, for years, I thought it had kind of dried up, and I found the last couple years I actually enjoy it a lot more, and it seems to have gotten somewhat relevant and come back. But there are strips that you just wonder are they strictly being kept on to keep some money coming into the heirs cause, obviously, the creator is long gone. Who’s to decide other than the cartoonists who want that space on the page? Who’s to decide when something has reached the end of the road?

PASTIS: It’s a really tough thing for a couple of reasons. One, okay, they do these comic polls, and when they do them, let’s say they do a newspaper-only comics poll. The people that are going to take the time to cut those things out and send them into the newspapers, stick the stamp on the envelope and all that stuff, tend to be older people. And so these older people have seen these characters for 30, 40, 50 years, and they’ve seen a young strip for two or three years or less. And so there’s a dynamic at play there where you’re just gonna lose. That’s a really tough nut to crack. So that’s a big part of the reason right there. And they do these polls, and they make no attempt, no attempt whatsoever, to do what every other poll that takes itself seriously does, which is to take stock of the demographics of who’s responding. It’s crazy. If the average person responding to a poll is sixty-two years old, what strips do you think are gonna be on that list? I could tell you what’s gonna be on that list. I don’t even know what your question is at this point, but I just went off on polls.





ANDELMAN: That’s okay. Would you prefer that editors just make a decision themselves and stop polling the audience that way?

PASTIS: Well, I’ve been able to talk to editors. I went to this features, what’s it called, American Society of Features Editors, ASFE something, and I spoke there, and I got to talk to the editors, and I got to tell them this. I said you try to do these newspaper polls. They make no attempt to do the demographics so that’s flawed. So then they say “We’ll open up to online so we’ll get young people.” And then they take no step whatsoever to stop someone from just cheating and voting thousands of times. And I don’t know why they do that. It’s basically just an invitation to cheat. It’s saying, “We’re going to put the comic in here that has learned to cheat the best,” and that doesn’t work either. So I’ve seen some papers that do it right. I’ve seen the Indianapolis Star did a poll where, if you vote online, you have to give your local phone number, and I think they inform people that they might call the number. And so that seemed to discourage fake votes so that sort of worked. But, yeah, I would prefer that they use their judgment, but it’s not a blind guess. For example, walk around a newsroom and look at the cubicle walls. What’s on the wall? What are people cutting out? What’s on the refrigerator in the break room? There’s an indicator. What’s your kid reading? What’s your wife reading? Go to Barnes and Noble and look in the comics section. What’s on the shelf? There’s a great way to do it. What are people spending their money on? What do people like so much they’ll actually spend their money on? Go to Amazon.com and go to the section called “Cartooning.” There’s one for cartooning, and there’s one for comic strips. Look at the top 50. What’s in there? There are ways to do this even if you don’t trust fully your own judgment rather than to open it up to rampant cheating online or just a lot of old people voting in a newspaper-only poll. There are ways to do it, and they don’t do it. This is a very sore subject for cartoonists, as you can tell by the length of my answer, but it’s very hard for cartoonists to take. And I think the easiest way for an editor maybe to understand that would be to say how would they like their jobs put up for a poll? Like, “Which editor do you like best at our paper? Vote and let us know. Who’s your favorite? Who’s your least favorite? And by the way, you can vote a thousand times in a half hour.” How would that make them feel? This is our job, and when you do something like that, it’s difficult to take. They don’t do that, I don’t think, with any other part of the paper.

ANDELMAN: My wife, who’s an editor at a newspaper, is probably cringing right now. Let’s go back to the phones for a minute. Howard was trying to call in. I think we’ve got him back on there. Howard, are you there?

FINBERG: I think I’m here.

ANDELMAN: Alright. Go ahead.

FINBERG: Stephan, what’s your work habit like? Tell us about your day in terms of do you get up, go to Starbucks, get inspiration, come back, or do you try to bang out a bunch of strips all at once? What’s your style like?

PASTIS: It varies, but the latest thing I’ve been doing is I drive to a coffee shop, and I have my iPod on with songs that I picked specifically, and I have it on so loud that I can’t hear anything else in the coffee shop. Usually, it’s to drown out the music they play at coffee shops. That drives me nuts. I want kind of my own music. And then I sit sort of in a corner where I can’t see people. I tend to have my back to people, and I pull the brim on my cap down real low. I know I look like an absolute freak. I know that. And then I just drink a lot of coffee, and I sit there with a notebook, and I write in script form. So it’ll say “Rat:,” “Pig:,” and then if there’s sort of a stage direction, I’ll put it in parentheses. And I just sit there, and I write like that. And for the first hour, it tends to be really bad, and I always want to get up and go home. And then after the first hour, sometimes two hours, the ideas start to come and more than not, the ideas come in bunches. So if you saw it on a graph, you’d see Hour 1: 0, Hour 2: 1, and Hour 3: 5. It just starts to all roll. And then after about three hours, I will drive home and then I draw a few. But it’s the writing I enjoy the most. When there are no ideas coming, it’s really tough, but by and large, writing is the exciting part. You never quite know what you’re going to find that day, and it’s a lot of fun. I think the only thing that really differentiates me from other cartoonists, and I’ve talked to a lot of cartoonists about this, is music. Most people like the room to be silent, and I don’t. I need the music. I need it to be really loud. So, yeah, that’s pretty much it.

FINBERG: Do you do your own inking and color work?

PASTIS: Yeah, I do. I do all that stuff. I ink them. If I didn’t ink them, they’d probably look a lot better. I ink them, and then I clean them up on the computer and add the Zip-a-tone on the computer and do the Sunday color on the computer. I think most cartoonists do that now. I know a couple like Patrick McDonnell (“Mutts”) who still does his Sundays. I think he watercolors them and then turns it into a color chart for American Color to add the color, but man, I couldn’t do that if I tried.


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© 2008 by Bob Andelman. All rights reserved.

Lee Salem, "Universal Press Syndicate" editor: Mr. Media Interview

Lee Salem is a guy I’ve admired for many, many years. As the president and editor of Universal Press Syndicate, he is the man responsible for recognizing a slew of creative talent that impacted American pop culture over the last 30-plus years. The origins of Garry Trudeau and “Doonesbury,” Gary Larson and “The Far Side,” Bill Watterson and “Calvin and Hobbes,” Lynn Johnston and “For Better or Worse” and Cathy Guisewite and “Cathy,” all can be traced back to the man I’m about to interview.

I had my own up-close and personal moment with Lee Salem. Mr. Media was originally a weekly syndicated column, one distributed by Universal Press Syndicate from July 1996 to May 1998. I remember my first email from Lee, suggesting Universal was interested in distributing the column, which until then had been self-syndicated. He even invited me out to Kansas City, where I met a half-dozen people – including Sue Roush, Bill Mitchell and Darrell Coleman - who I stayed friendly with for many years to come.

And on that trip, seeing how awed I was by whom I was with and my surroundings, Lee jokingly invited me to take a spin in his office chair. Who could resist? Would a political junkie refuse the chance to sit in the President’s chair at the Oval Office? Would a Trekkie turn down the opportunity to take the con from Captain Kirk? It was a pretty cool ride for a guy who dubbed himself “Mr. Media.”

I like Lee a lot and respect him even more. And when I decided to restart Mr. Media as an online feature, Lee Salem was at the top of the list of people I wanted to interview.

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BOB ANDELMAN: Lee, thanks for taking the time to do this.

LEE SALEM: I enjoy it.

ANDELMAN: Not a bad introduction, huh?

SALEM: Pretty good.

ANDELMAN: Let’s start by playing a game of first impressions. Tell me what you remember, the first thing you remember about these things that I mentioned, if you would. Let’s start with “Doonesbury.”

SALEM: Well, a slight correction. “Doonesbury” was picked up by the syndicate in 1970, and I started in 1974, but it wasn’t more than a year and a half or two when I started editing Garry. One of my earliest recollections on the bad side was letting the word “missile” to through misspelled, a word I will never misspell again. And on the good side, I started in July of 1974, and the following spring, we nominated him for the Pulitzer for his work in 1974, which mostly focused on Watergate. And that year, he won his Pulitzer, so that was a thrilling time for all of us.

ANDELMAN: All right. And what about “The Far Side”?

SALEM: We had been doing Gary’s books for maybe a year or so, and Gary at that time was with a smaller syndicate, Chronicle Features, and made it clear that he wanted to come over to us, and we had some tough negotiations with his lawyer, and Bob Duffy, who preceded me in the presidency and was then sales director, and I kind of looked at each other wondering about the tough terms of his contract, but it worked out great for everybody, and we had a wonderful run with Gary and still do calendars with him on a regular basis and still remain friends.

ANDELMAN: “Calvin and Hobbes.”

SALEM: Well, Bill is Bill. The somewhat rancorous relationship between the two of us, while occasional, was still public, and he made his feelings clear about the business obligations that we felt and thought that we were asking too much of him and “Calvin and Hobbes” in terms of exposure in the market. We ultimately accepted his arguments and redid his contract, and he retired after a brilliant ten-year run, probably as strong a ten-year run as anyone in comics history, I think.

ANDELMAN: “Cathy.”

SALEM: Well, we just celebrated thirty years with “Cathy.” We had a nice dinner with her last fall. When “Cathy” began, everyone was apprehensive. We circulated it in the office before we launched it, and people were saying, what is this, the art and the character? And it is still in well over a thousand papers after thirty years, which, in this market, is quite an accomplishment. I really look on her as a pioneer, and if “Cathy” had not worked the way we hoped it would, I am not sure we would have made the plunge with Lynn Johnston and “For Better or For Worse.” But “Cathy” worked, and it seemed natural to us that the time was right for talented women on a comic page.

ANDELMAN: All right. Well, then, “For Better or For Worse.”

SALEM: Well, that’s a great segue. When we saw Lynn’s work, we loved it. We loved her perspective. In the late ’70s, there was not a great demand for more family strips because the pages seemed to be dominated by them, but what attracted us was the mother’s perspective and the somewhat wry tone she would take on her situation and her husband’s life and children’s lives, and it has proven to be a comic strip that has dominated the surveys in terms of popularity for a long time.

ANDELMAN: And another family strip, “Foxtrot.”

SALEM: It’s a wonder Bill even signed with us. When Jake Morrissey, who was an editor with us, and I first visited Bill out in California, we had breakfast with him and went outside and went to wish him well, and somebody had taken off the bumper on the front of his car, and we had to dash off because we had another appointment. We were in Berkeley, and there was a comics convention then, and we kind of left Bill there. We waved at him and wished him well, and ever since then, I have felt terrible about it, but “Foxtrot” was another case of, answering the question, does the world need another family strip, but the kids were so different, and he was bringing in science, and that occasionally kind of added another perspective to it, and really, until his retirement from the daily portion of “Foxtrot” a couple months ago, I think it was consistently a top ten strip.





ANDELMAN: We just have a couple more. I promise I am not going to take you through the whole list. “The Boondocks.”

SALEM: Well, “The Boondocks,” for a long time we had been looking for a strip by an African-American cartoonist, and nothing really leaped out to us as saying this is a Universal-type strip, and then “The Boondocks” landed on our desks, and one of our editors in Chicago spotted it. He sent in a submission to us about the same time. Everyone had a very similar response that this was a breath of fresh air, and it proved out to be a wonderful strip for us. It didn’t achieve in number as some of the strips we have already mentioned, but in terms of its notoriety, it certainly was a national phenomenon, and he used that to springboard to what we hope will be a successful career in animation in television.

ANDELMAN: “Bloom County.”

SALEM: Not one of ours.

ANDELMAN: I know.

SALEM: But Washington Post Writers’ Group. I have been a long-time admirer of Berke’s work and met him a few times in social situations. I think he tried assiduously to get away from the mantle of being a derivative of “Doonesbury,” and I think to some extent he succeeded, because I think the characters and sensibility developed to be pretty much his own.

ANDELMAN: And the last one, “LIO.”

SALEM: “LIO” is a new strip, has been out less than a year, and it is something different. There is no language in it, it’s all pantomime, which I suspect is very, very difficult to do from the creative standpoint trying to think up a new situation each day using this character as the focal point. It’s a little dark and edgy sometimes though oriented for younger readers, and we have had a terrific launch with it, and it’s approaching 300 papers in less than a year, so we are delighted with it.

ANDELMAN: Oh, is it up that high already?

SALEM: Yeah.

ANDELMAN: I spoke to him a month ago, and it was at 250.

SALEM: Well, it’s at 275 or 280 now. He did benefit somewhat by “Foxtrot” going off the daily pages, but I think we will have a good long run with it.

ANDELMAN: We talked about “The Boondocks” a minute ago, but do you think that Aaron McGruder will ever return, and what was the last you heard about this?

SALEM: I know he is enamored of the whole Hollywood sensibility and the opportunities of Hollywood. I think he thinks that he can do a bit more creatively with animation, and I certainly understand that. I think that there are certain personality/creative types who are drawn to what comic strips can do whether on a newspaper page or the web, but I think other sensibilities respond to animation. I think Aaron’s talents are shown on a television show, and I doubt very much if he will return to the confines of a three or four panel a day strip.

ANDELMAN: Have you ever thought what it is that might be different about the culture at Universal compared to other syndicates, that, you have had these brilliant strips, these very unique strips, whether it be “Far Side” or “Calvin and Hobbes,” “Boondocks,” even “Doonesbury,” which has taken some long breaks? You don’t hear these same kinds of things happening at other syndicates. I mean, we never heard about Fred Laswell taking a year off from “Snuffy Smith,” for example, or giving up a popular strip like “The Boondocks.” Why does it seem to happen at Universal whereas we don’t hear about it from other syndicates?

SALEM: Well, the owners here asked me the same question with a slightly different tone in it: “Why is that happening to us all the time?” I think when the company was founded by John McMeel, who is now the CEO, and Jim Andrews, who ran the editorial side and, alas, died in 1980, I think they wanted to do things a little differently, and even in a very conservative medium like the comic page, tried to push out the boundaries a bit, and I think that is the flip side of the coin of being attracted to talents who are somewhat exotic and eccentric in the way they approach the art form. Garry, I think, really was the cornerstone of the editorial viewpoint that we had developed. We like people who try to do things a little differently, and sometimes that entails a slightly different attitude toward the definition of a career. You’re right. There are other cartoonists, and they are legion, who wouldn’t think about taking time off. I think when we announced a vacation program for our cartoonists, Charles Schulz was quoted as saying, “Well, I love this job; why would I ever want to take a vacation from it?” But I am not in a position to judge another person’s creative wellspring, and if our cartoonists sometimes think they need some time off, then we are going to try to accommodate them within certain limits. I think it’s the responsible thing to do for the late 20th and early 21st centuries, and I think if we had not had a time-off policy for someone like Trudeau, I think he would have given up the drawing board a long time ago.





ANDELMAN: Do you think that Universal has kind of looser reins on its artists than maybe others do?

SALEM: Yeah, that’s one way to describe it. Editorially, we are involved quite a bit. We spend a lot of time up front working with cartoonists on characters and development and trying to come up with a common understanding of where the strip might go in the future. I think that we have a reputation for standing with our artists. I think that’s a good thing more often than not, and I think that the artists respect us and like us for standing with them when they try to do something that is perhaps frowned upon by some newspapers. But in terms of loose reins, I am not sure if I would describe that, because we believe in the creative process, and we believe that the cartoonists, once they have developed a relationship with their readers, have a right to try certain things, and maybe it’s not so much a question of tight or loose reins but a different approach to creativity and how that is going to be reflected in the marketplace.

ANDELMAN: Lee, as you look back, if you would look back on Lynn Johnston’s separation from Universal, is there anything you wish you had done differently? And the reason I ask that is that was a tough time to lose a strip that had, I think, 1,800 clients, given that you had just lost, I think, within a period of time Watterson, Larson, and Erma Bombeck had died on the column side.

SALEM: Yeah, that was in a relatively short space of three years or so, and those are four people who left us for different reasons. Yeah, looking back, I am sure that there are things we could have done in our relationship with Lynn that would have encouraged her to renew with us. She decided she wanted to try something else, and we always know that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, and in this case, it wasn’t as green as perhaps she thought it was. It wasn’t too long into it before she called and tried to renew the relationship, and when the opportunity afforded itself contractually, she came back to us.

ANDELMAN: In terms of, and we should include her in the group we were talking about a little while ago about the kind of looseness of taking time off, who came up with the new plan where some strips will kind of repeat, and it’s going to be not fresh every day, or maybe you would want to describe that differently?

SALEM: Well, she has a very able team who works with her on different aspects of the strip and also assists her with licensing and other areas, and I think that in discussions up there, they kind of were moving toward this approach to the strip, and when it was presented to us, we talked about it and had some input here and some input there, but to us, it seemed like a nice midway point between either full retirement or keeping up with the daily grind of deadlines. So we are looking forward to seeing what happens, because I think it will be a blend of old and new, and I think it will be something a little different in the market. It won’t be strict reruns as such, and I think she is going to take some creative steps that this particular approach will allow her. I think it’s going to be good for newspapers and good for fans in newspapers and probably good for the strip.

ANDELMAN: And when will that start?

SALEM: Late September.

ANDELMAN: Okay. Let’s come back to “Cathy” for a moment. I was reading something that interested me. Cathy Guisewite had said that she was originally encouraged by her mother to become a cartoonist, that her mother went to the library, made up a list of syndicate editors to whom her daughter, who was kind of hesitant, should submit her admittedly maybe primitive drawings, and the first name on the list was you. Do you remember that package?

SALEM: I still have that package.

ANDELMAN: Oh, you do?

SALEM: I remember it very well. When I retire, it will be on eBay. It was one of those things, it was addressed to Jim Andrews, whom I have already mentioned, and at that time, the submissions came in to me, and it ended up at the top of my “In” box, and just by fluke, I just grabbed it and immediately loved the writing, and I put a little note on it saying, “I really love this writing, but the art…?” And it went to my out box, and that same day it ended up in the top of Jim’s in box, and he just happened to grab it, and we had a contract out to her the same day. And that’s what’s fun about this business is that things like that can happen. It’s still a great forum for Cinderella stories, and there is a talent out there yet who could send something in and six months later be in a hundred papers and a year from now be in 300 or 400 papers. It can happen that quickly, so it’s still a lot of fun, and that’s what keeps us going.

ANDELMAN: Which is more important, though, the art or the story-telling?

SALEM: Well, I think the times have shifted. People like Garry Trudeau and Cathy Guisewite, even some of the early Larson, the art was criticized by more established or more finished artists, but I think in those cases, the writing really kept things going until the art could catch up to the writing. I think now that we have been through that period of thirty, thirty-five years, "Dilbert" is another good example, I think that given readers’ habits and what newspapers are looking for, good writing will prevail over good art. I think it’s easier to sell good writing with less good art than it is to sell good art with less good writing.





ANDELMAN: I think I know the answer to this next question, but I am going to ask you any way. Cathy appears in easily more than a 1,000 newspapers, but it doesn’t get the same respect that some of your other strips do. As a matter of fact, it is often ridiculed in other strips. How do you explain its enduring popularity?

SALEM: Well, I think it is in some ways an iconic strip. I mentioned before that I thought in some ways she was a pioneer in this industry, and outside of “Brenda Starr,” which wasn’t really a humorous strip, and one or two earlier attempts, there really was not much in the comics pages for or by women in 1976, and this was the year in which, I may be off a year or two, but I think women were the people of the year at Time magazine. We were kind of waking up to the fact that half of our population really wasn’t being given opportunities the way they should be given, and I think “Cathy” was perceived as an example of that at that particular point. I think within a year and a half or two years of syndication, she had been invited to the White House and was involved in efforts for the Equal Rights Amendment, and I think that her long-time readers have come to accept that part of what she did for the art form and for newspapers. I think more recent readers look at the strip a little differently in terms of the small world in many ways that “Cathy” inhabits, but the writing has been consistent over the years, as has the art, and I think people have just come to accept what it is. You’re right. Some of her fellow cartoonists sometimes make fun of her style or the way she sets up jokes or the themes that she explores, but what’s interesting, I think two springs ago, she was honored by the National Cartoonists’ Society, and some of those very same cartoonists who might on occasion ridicule the strip were the first ones in line to shake her hand and give her a hug and ask for her autograph.

ANDELMAN: You have mentioned Cathy Guisewite as one of the first female cartoonists doing a daily and female-centered strip that really hit it big and then also seeking out an African American-based strip in “The Boondocks,” I recall that “For Better or For Worse” got you guys in some hot water at one point when -- is it Lawrence? -- who turned up gay? Are there any gay strips coming? Should there be?

SALEM: I haven’t seen any. I think that if that’s going to work, it would be less because it’s a gay strip than it is because it is a strip with characters, one or two of whom happen to be gay, if you see the emphasis difference there, but who knows? It would depend a lot on the writing and the sense of humor that the artist might employ.

ANDELMAN: It would be a lot trickier, I bet, to get that on the daily newspaper pitch. If you could point comics fans to one largely undiscovered Universal strip, what would it be?

SALEM: Oh, gosh, there are too many people that… I am looking at my wall. One of my favorites is from a panel we do, and the answer shows a guy standing there on the phone, and he goes, “Uh oh,” and the caption is reading… wait, it’s way across the wall… the caption says, “You find out that you are responsible for things you never knew you were responsible for,” and that’s the kind of humor that I particularly like. You are going to have to edit this. I am blanking out on the title of the panel.

ANDELMAN: I like that, actually.

SALEM: It will come to me before the interview is over.

ANDELMAN: All right. And if it doesn’t, you can tell me later, and I will add it in. Now, what strips distributed by your competitors would you like to have had a Universal?

SALEM: You know, I spend more http://www2.blogger.com/img/gl.link.giftime thinking about what we’re doing and less about what the competitors are doing, so I am not really sure how to answer that. Obviously, any syndicate executive would have loved to have “Dilbert” before it took off the way it did, and there are other strips that are making a mark, like “Pearls Before Swine” and “Get Fuzzy.” But you know, I just finished reading a book called April 1865, which is about the last month of the Civil War and the assassination of Lincoln, and there is a scene in which Grant is talking to his generals, and he said, “Lee, Lee, I am tired to hearing about General Lee. What are we going to do?” And that’s kind of like the way I look at it. I worry less about the other syndicates are doing than what we ourselves are doing.

ANDELMAN: Well, let me ask you in a slightly different way, and you already mentioned…

SALEM: “Real Life Adventures,” by the way. It suddenly came to me.

ANDELMAN: That’s it, “Real Life Adventures.”

SALEM: “Real Life Adventures” is one of my favorite panels.





ANDELMAN: Okay. Now, Will Eisner used to tell a story about rejecting “Superman” when Siegel and Shuster were shopping it to New York publishers in the last 1930s. Do you have any similar stories of missed opportunities? You kind of referred a little while ago to “Dilbert.” I wondered if that might be one.

SALEM: I don’t know whether we saw “Dilbert.” We did see “Bloom County” early on, and he signed with the Washington Post Writer’s Group. The story’s here that somebody may have seen “Garfield” way back when, but I can’t confirm that one. It’s a small enough industry with only half a dozen or so major players that it wouldn’t surprise me if we saw one or two others that were picked up by the syndicates and did very well, and vice-versa. It happens in this business a lot, maybe not a lot, but it happens enough so that syndicate editors who are in charge of acquisitions are certainly aware that it’s a problem, and we try to be sure to look at things quickly when they come in.

ANDELMAN: How many submissions a year at this point?

SALEM: We get roughly fifty or sixty a week, so that’s 3,000 or so a year. Not all comics, of course, but a mix of things, puzzles and columns, etc., but everything has to be looked at to be sure that it’s something that we can use or not use.

ANDELMAN: I imagine you might have some good stories, but to what lengths have creators gone to get noticed by you and Universal?

SALEM: Well, there are some who just knock on the door and say, here I am, and sometimes we can see them, sometimes we can’t, depending on what’s going on. I do remember one person had a strip set on a tropical island. I forget the details of it, but for a week we were getting coconuts in the mail in advance. We would open this coconut and no note, no anything, and then maybe the third day there was a note, and by the fifth day, it was like, coming soon, and then we finally got the submission, so that was a creative way to do it, and we looked at it, but there wasn’t something we thought we could do much with. But I think people rely too much on fancy packaging and less on writing and art in the original material, and that’s the one thing I would encourage people interested in the art form, is to spend time on the writing, spend time on the art work, and then don’t worry about the quality of the package. Assume that the editors are going to do their job and read the material.

ANDELMAN: Lee, before we wind up, just a couple more things. Universal, of course, distributes far more than comic strips. It was the home of Erma Bombeck, it distributed my pal Chuck Shepherd’s popular “News of the Weird” feature, and it’s the home of conservative columnist Ann Coulter. Are there any internal conflicts being the distributor of political properties as diverse as Garry Trudeau and Aaron McGruder and Ann Coulter?

SALEM: Not so much conflicts. It’s interesting you would mention Ann Coulter and Aaron McGruder, because at one time, the same editor handled both, and I think he suffered from political whiplash if he had a week of “The Boondocks” come in the same day as a column by Ann Coulter, say. I think that newspapers and readers understand that syndicates are in the business to disseminate entertainment and disseminate ideas and disseminate discussion, and it would not do this company any good, nor do I think it would do newspapers any good, for us to come have a strong ideological viewpoint, personal strong ideological viewpoint that we try to purvey in the newspapers.

ANDELMAN: And I know that Universal has had some events, I guess the 25th or 30th anniversary, have those three ever been in the room together?

SALEM: No.

ANDELMAN: Okay. All right. I realize that Aaron, of course, is not doing “The Boondocks.” Is it still running in some places?

SALEM: We make it available online and in print for foreign newspapers.





ANDELMAN: Which of the three, Trudeau, McGruder, or Coulter, has caused you more sleepless nights or phone calls from nervous editors?

SALEM: Well, all three have presented a variety of problems, but I would have to put Garry Trudeau at the top of the list, only because that’s about as close as we ever came to getting sued. He did a week on Frank Sinatra receiving the Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian honor that an individual can receive, and he did a week on Sinatra, just a blistering week, with alleged Mafia ties, etc., etc., and we had lawyered it inside, out, and backwards, and but that didn’t stop Sinatra and his lawyers, and we had some exchange of mail, and I really thought that this could be it, this could be the test of the First Amendment, but finally Sinatra’s lawyers backed off, but it was touch and go and our lawyers in the situation were terrific. The people we got problems from, of course, was the insurance company.

© 2007 by Bob Andelman. All rights reserved.